From andyback.demon.co.uk Sun Jan 14 21:37:45 1996
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From: Andy Back back.demon.co.uk>
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Subject: SCSI on VS2000
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Hi

Dunno if DEC did anything, but I know a guy who had a VS2000 and he 
managed to get a SCSI disk to work on the SCSI port, but I think VMS 
treated it as a tape in certain respects. All I know is it worked but it 
wasn't reliable, maybe there are some new drivers you can get, or maybe 
the disk type functions aren't implemented in the SCSI command set on the 
KA410 (by firmware ?). Let me know if you get any further.


Andy



From kozambart.mlksoft.com Sun Jan 14 20:17:03 1996
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To: edwardliverpool.ac.uk
Message-ID: <0099C61B.AC6EF5A0.1bart.mlksoft.com>
Subject: Re: SCSI on VS2000
Status: RO

Eddy,

You write:

> Can a SCSI disk be connected to a VS-2000 SCSI adaptor?

> I have heard that the SCSI I/F for the VS2000 is "limited" and will only
> work for the TK50 - is this a h/w or s/w problem? I heard DEC was working
> on something in the late 80's - anything come of this?

	I have researched this on several occassions.  I believe that the
problem is both hardware and software.

	First off, when the VS2000 was in design, SCSI was still very young
so the hardware isn't exactly compliant.  It is REALLY close - tantilizingly
so (that's why this thread keeps coming up).  Perhaps one device would work,
but then again, probably not.

	Hardware is yet another issue.  DEC never wrote any support
for this kind of use.  Perhaps something internal, but even then, perhaps
not.

	All that said, a company called Trimarchi in Pennsylvania U.S.A.
had a product that I believe used the VS2000 port to attach some disks.  I
never used it, saw it, or even knew of anyone who used it.

	After going through the technical manual (which happens to be very
detailed - unlike more recent "technical manuals"), I've concluded that
it would be possible to put SCSI-like disks on the VS2000.  The disks would
probably need custom firmware.  As always, the deciding factor was economics.
By the time SCSI was well accepted, the VS2000 was already an ageing product.
It didn't make sense to develop SCSI capabilities on a machine that was
already nearing the door.

	Hope this gives you a useful answer.

Marc Kozam
kozammlksoft.com


In article csc.liv.ac.uk> Eddy Austin liv.ac.uk> writes:
:hi
:
:Can a SCSI disk be connected to a VS-2000 SCSI adaptor?
        No.
:
:I have heard that the SCSI I/F for the VS2000 is "limited" and will only
:work for the TK50 - is this a h/w or s/w problem? I heard DEC was working
:on something in the late 80's - anything come of this?
        The "SCSI I/F" is not SCSI, it is special purpose for the TK50.
There was a special variant of the TK50 (TKZ50?) which replaced the controller
board with a SCSI adapter for use on SCSI bus machine like the VS/DS 3100.

Sam

 Im sure in the Technical manual for the VS/uV2000 the CPU board
(KA410) is shown as having a SCSI chip (NCR ?) and the I/F marked as
SCSI. I know it is meant for tape only (TK50), but the matching drive
(TK50Z-F3) requires only a change of ROM (so I understood) to work with a
VS/uVAX 3000+ (which makes it a TK50Z-G3).

 Maybe the limitation is in the CPU modules firmware or in VMS drivers,
or maybe I am just babbling (probably the case).

Andy

In article <821742351.8001back.demon.co.uk>, Andy Back  wrote:
> Im sure in the Technical manual for the VS/uV2000 the CPU board
>(KA410) is shown as having a SCSI chip (NCR ?) and the I/F marked as
>SCSI. I know it is meant for tape only (TK50), but the matching drive
>(TK50Z-F3) requires only a change of ROM (so I understood) to work with a
>VS/uVAX 3000+ (which makes it a TK50Z-G3).

The chip used is the NCR 5380. That's an older chip, so you wouldn't be
able to do synchronous SCSI with it. I also don't see any reason the
port can't be used for generic SCSI. Yes, arguing with the disk controller
over ownership of the DMA buffer might be interesting, but it should at
least be possible...

Roger Ivie
iviecc.usu.edu

In article <4dbi1u$6q4nntpd.lkg.dec.com>,
   hoffmanxdelta.enet.dec.com (Stephen Hoffman) wrote:
>
>In article csc.liv.ac.uk>, Eddy Austin liv.ac.uk> writes:
>
>:I have heard that the SCSI I/F for the VS2000 is "limited" and will only
>:work for the TK50 - is this a h/w or s/w problem? I heard DEC was working
>:on something in the late 80's - anything come of this?
>
>   If you want a SCSI-based system, I'd strongly recommend acquiring a
>   new or used member of the MicroVAX or VAXstation 3100 series or of
>   the VAXstation 4000 series -- the VAXstation and MicroVAX 2000 did
>   not have a SCSI interface, they had an I/O interface that was similar
>   to SCSI...  All 3100 and 4000 series VAXstation systems are faster
>   (many are significantly faster), and all are rather more extensible
>   than the VAXstation 2000 series.  And all have at least one SCSI...
>
>  ------------------------------ Opinionative -------------------------------
>   Stephen Hoffman      OpenVMS Engineering      hoffmanxdelta.enet.dec.com
>  ---------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
Actually, the SCSI port IS SCSI..but limited to SCSI-1  You can use a disk on
this if you are willing the write your own driver..sorry, I don't remember the
chip type but think its an NCR general scsi interface..I don't have a 2000
board laying around to get the chip no. from..I looked at this myself,but
decided to look for a 3100 instead..(Its easier to get a free 3100 then write
a driver!)  Have fun with it..Its a great toy!

Andy Back back.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> Im sure in the Technical manual for the VS/uV2000 the CPU board
>(KA410) is shown as having a SCSI chip (NCR ?) and the I/F marked as
>SCSI. I know it is meant for tape only (TK50), but the matching drive
>(TK50Z-F3) requires only a change of ROM (so I understood) to work with a
>VS/uVAX 3000+ (which makes it a TK50Z-G3).
>
> Maybe the limitation is in the CPU modules firmware or in VMS drivers,
>or maybe I am just babbling (probably the case).

If I remember correctly, the interface chip in the VS2000 is an NCR
5380.  This is the same chip as used in the original Mac Plus and, I
believe, the VS3100 SCSI interface.  I don't know, however, whether or
not all of the signals are connected on the VS2000 so that it can be
used as a full SCSI interface.  They may just be using it as a
sophisticated parallel interface controller. In any case, the drives do
NOT support it as a generic SCSI controller, so the point is moot.

Ages ago, Trimarchi had a hard disk system which could be connected to
this port, but I believe that they provided their own drivers and that
it wasn't a true SCSI solution.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Chris Scheers, Applied Synergy, Inc.

817-237-3360 (Voice)    817-237-3074 (Fax)    Internet: asiairmail.net

In article csc.liv.ac.uk>, Eddy Austin liv.ac.uk> writes:
> hi
>
> Can a SCSI disk be connected to a VS-2000 SCSI adaptor?

Yes.... but, while you didn't ask, it won't work.   :-(

> I have heard that the SCSI I/F for the VS2000 is "limited" and will only
> work for the TK50 - is this a h/w or s/w problem? I heard DEC was working
> on something in the late 80's - anything come of this?

The story that I have heard was that DEC tried to add on a CD-ROM in place
of the TK50.....this was about V4.7 of VMS.... but they didn't get it to
work very well.

I _think_ the limitations are software based, althought the hardware _was_
early SCSI.   I also believe that some mob in the States marketed a SCSI
disk upgrade for 2000's......Clearpoint???....anyone remember the details?
 
> --ed
>
>
> Eddy Austin                                      In a dog eat dog world
> edwardliverpool.ac.uk                           you gotta eat some dog!

        regards,
                CrazyCam        Nostalgic and Obsolete Products SIG
                                DECUS Australia